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 Posted 9/1/2012 12:40:50 PM |
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Feather Fanatic
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I didn't take things any further because I didn't want her to feel obligated to offer to return Sam to me. His name is Thornton now. That's where they found him, in Thornton Park, Orlando, FL.
www.ParrotAdventures.com
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| Posted 9/1/2012 1:26:16 PM |
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Feather Fanatic
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| Harley's Dad, everything that has been said has been for Harley's safety and well-being. The last thing that any of us want to hear is that Harley has gotten spooked, took off and is now stuck up in a tree, lost, or worse. I'm the one who mentioned about doing recall training indoors from various locations to get Harley comfortable flying to you from a variety of distances and heights - so that in the event he does end up somewhere he shouldn't be, he'll feel far more comfortable flying to you than if he hadn't had that training. Barefoot is right, some people are lucky and haven't had any problems allowing their untrained parrots to fly outside.... but most people aren't that lucky. I do recall that video of the flying macaw and the owner on a motorcycle. I wouldn't be surprised if the macaw was largely raised outside as he was growing up (taken outside frequently as a chick), and thus became accustomed to being outside. The sooner you get a bird accustomed to being outside and everything that occurs outside, the better it is for the bird. I've also read about a well trained male eclectus who flew outside. The owners were flying him outside in an open, grassy field with one set of power lines and one road that went through that wasn't busy. I remember reading that the ekkie came down for a landing on his owners hand/arm, but didn't fly down far enough to make the landing so he made a swoop to come back down again. He was at about the right height for the landing as he was flying down across the road, and that's when a van was driving past and hit him. Unfortunately, he did not survive the incident. Parrotz, please don't quote me on this, but as per a study done in Europe, it's about 50/50 on parrots that have been flighted vs those that have been clipped that have gotten lost... clipping is in no means a safety net to keeping a bird from getting lost... especially a bird that has strong flight muscles and a good gust of wind to ride on.
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| Posted 9/1/2012 3:30:39 PM |
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Monica, one of the things that are not often divulged in these statistics is that many of the the birds involved were not properly clipped. Most all of the birds lost with clipped feathers had feathers that had grown back in and re-enabled flight. With only two feathers grown back in a bird can fly just like they had all of their feathers.
This is a statistic that would serve our bird community better if properly and fairly presented. Some of the factual information has been withheld to achieve an informational bias.
www.ParrotAdventures.com
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| Posted 9/1/2012 7:21:24 PM |
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Feather Fanatic
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| A properly clipped bird should be able to glide to the ground. A properly clipped bird, with enough adrenaline and a gust of wind can still take off! An improperly clipped bird (i.e. severely clipped bird) will not be able to take flight and could result in injury due to lack of complete control. Injury to feet, legs, keel bone, beak....
I have heard stories of just clipped birds taking off!
Parrots have 10 primary feathers for flight. Depending on the birds size, weight and build, it can take anywhere from 4-10 feathers on each wing to "ground" the bird. The secondairies should never be clipped or trimmed.
I don't even recommend taking clipped birds outside and think it's a poor excuse to keep birds clipped - i.e. the chance of escape. I also feel that other reasons for clipping birds are extremely poor excuses, but to each their own. All I can do is try and educate the owner and hope they are willing to learn more to better care for their own pets.... and to make a better educated decision.
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| Posted 9/1/2012 10:07:21 PM |
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Sorry to hijack this thread, kinda, but did you guys hear about the term "modern parrot"?
There are groups that organize get-togethers like this one, for owners with their "modern parrots". To me it looks similar to what parrotz bird club web site has. Even though this site says the birds are clipped or harnessed, trained, and well supervised, seeing so many birds out in the open, even very small ones, makes me nervous. Most birds there are clipped, and not in harness.
It's a cool fantasy, though, to have such bird playdates in nature. Sure, birds look happy, but they are not aware of the dangers. It would make me more at ease if there was a huge net all around!
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| Posted 9/2/2012 4:33:42 PM |
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| Thank you all for the replies! Finally a real discussion. But... Parrotz I asked a simple question. Sorry I hit a nerve. Is it do as I say but not as I do? It was pointed out that a wing clip is not a guarntee... As for Harley's wing clip. Check again. In case you don't want to watch the video again let me tell I just checked and Harley still has the first 5 flights clipped. Clearly he can barely get any kind of lift. He doesn't has the muscle mass and that is what we are working on. I said it before I don't ever plan on having Harley fully flighted. I guess you can also say the current clip is not properly done but the last time they were clipped they were done by a professional and I trust them to do it right. (Chris at A Parrot's Cove here in Houston TX is my go to guy.) But let me see...someone mentioned that he could break a bone falling because he wasn't able to get any lift. Now his wings aren't clipped enough and he could fly off. Which is it? Can't be both. Or is it whatever fits into your doomsday scenario? Clearly I am not looking for approval. I have repeatedly said I have given this much thought and I will do what I feel is right for my and my bird. If it was your bird then I would assume you would do what you feel is right. I would not judge nor would I feel the need to tell you you're wrong for doing that. Do you spank your kids? Does my opinion on this bear any weight on how you raise your chidren? Would you be offended if someone told you how to raise your chidren? I would not do what I am able to do with Harley with another bird. If he had another personality I know it would not work. At the same time you do not know me. You do not know how I live my life. You do not know how happy and healthy and well adjusted my bird is. I am planning on doing a "day in the life" video so maybe you all can get a tiny glympse into how Harley and I interact. Then it might might change your opinions.
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| Posted 9/2/2012 8:51:34 PM |
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Harleys_Dad, no you didn't hit a nerve. What I saw in the video looked like only four partly clipped feathers on one wing. I've previously stated that you should cut six and that the regrowth of as little as two feathers will re-enable full flight. And you're still trying to refocus things on me. My group, with it's new name, has been meeting for nearly ten years without the loss or escape of a single bird. And you are welcome to attend.
Monica cited a somewhat bogus survey. (Literally hear say) It's unlike her to do so. I was further shocked by her unusual display of bias toward the accuracy of information. This is not her normal style.
The problem here is that you and I will never know for sure that you're doing everything right, but, we will know for sure when you're wrong!
www.ParrotAdventures.com
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| Posted 9/2/2012 9:08:49 PM |
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Good Psittacine
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Parrotz..I want to be in your group. Will you send me a ticket..haha? I'm in California. Shouldn't be too expensive .
     - LoLei & La Vena
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| Posted 9/4/2012 7:41:26 AM |
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[quote]Parrotz (9/2/2012)
Harleys_Dad, no you didn't hit a nerve. What I saw in the video looked like only four partly clipped feathers on one wing. I've previously stated that you should cut six and that the regrowth of as little as two feathers will re-enable full flight. And you're still trying to refocus things on me. My group, with it's new name, has been meeting for nearly ten years without the loss or escape of a single bird. And you are welcome to attend.
Monica cited a somewhat bogus survey. (Literally hear say) It's unlike her to do so. I was further shocked by her unusual display of bias toward the accuracy of information. This is not her normal style.
The problem here is that you and I will never know for sure that you're doing everything right, but, we will know for sure when you're wrong!
[/quote]
Not shifting any focus just pointing out hypocrisy. You can't sit there and say I am wrong when you are putting birds in the same situation I am. The do as I say not as I do doesn't work on adults.
And why is Monica's survey bogus? Is it because you don't agree with it?
Parrotz you really need to think about a career in politics. You can't seem to find common ground and you're very good at manipulating facts and conversations.
But You can't sit there and honestly tell me that the birds in your bird group photos are properly wing clipped and there has never been an incident because doing that also says that what I am doing is not wrong because it is the same thing.
You can say their wing clip doesn't allow them to glide so there is no way they can escape. If that is the case then you know that is not a proper wing clip as it gives them no choice and they can hurt themselves if they fall. Also if their wing clip doesn't allow them to at least glide then they are stuck and have no choice about where they get to be. Being stuck on a perch is no fun nor is it stimulating. Might as well keep them in a cage. But if you say they can safely glide and move freely then you ARE putting them in danger, just like you accuse me of, because they could easily fly away.
So now you have a choice, agree with me or manipulate the facts to justify your actions.
But if you don't agree with Monica's survey and what I do is really no different than what I see in your pics we are then on the same team.
We're either both putting our birds in danger or we're both not....
(I wonder if I had said Harley had 6 flights clipped if someone would have said there should be 7 clipped or if I said he had 7 clipped someone would have said he needed 8 clipped and so on and so on....LOL!)
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| Posted 9/4/2012 9:12:15 AM |
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Harleys_Dad, you are still trying to deflect the original premise that your flight training is unsafe. You're attempting to deflect attention onto my club based on some still pictures of birds with folded wings.
I would like to fly my birds too, but, I cannot currently arrange a situation where it is safe. Flight training always starts with a bird learning to fly to you. This takes place in an enclosed area where you control the environment. As a bird owner you always want a bird to look to you first for safety. The first lesson is usually teaching the bird to leap onto your arm for a treat. You slowly increase the distance so that the bird learns to use his wings to help him span the gap between the two of you. You always support the bond of trust between you and the bird. Always!
You're doing things backwards. The bird in your video is getting tossed into the air and encouraged to fly away from you. This is taking place in an uncontrolled environment. Predators can fly in and spook your bird. And so can loud noises. When spooked our birds fly away unless they have been trained to turn and look for us for safety. You're undermining that bond of trust between you and your bird.
Why not arrange with your friend Chris, that does your bird's wings, to help you. If he is all you say, he will certainly put you on the right path. But, if your macaw is going to be a flyer do it right and safely. Also give him all his feathers to fly with and provide outings on a leash. Otherwise you need to keep you boy better clipped than in the video.
Monica is capable of doing so very much more than repeating rumors and conclusions. She routinely finds and provided accurate data and information without bias or opinion. Don't let this momentary lapse on her part color your views.
www.ParrotAdventures.com
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